The Generational Joy of the Homeschool Experience [Show]

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Gretchen Roe: 00:00:05.086
Good afternoon, everyone. This is Gretchen Roe for The Demme Learning Show, and I am so excited to welcome these two beautiful ladies to spend an hour with me today. I have looked forward to this for months on end. And I think this is going to be a very special and a little bit different kind of an adventure for us today. We’re going to talk about the generational joy of homeschooling. And so we’re going to cast a vision for you, both in your own families, but in your children as well. And I’m looking forward to being able to do that with these two lovely ladies. I’ll let them introduce themselves in a moment. By way of introduction, I will tell you that I have six children, all of whom are grown, most of whom are flown. And I have enjoyed 21 years of homeschooling my own children. And I wouldn’t have traded that time for anything. And Amanda, I’ll let you introduce yourself first. And then Christina, I’ll let you introduce yourself.

Amanda Capps: 00:01:06.884
So I’m Amanda Capps, and we’re broadcasting live from Northwest Arkansas. I’m a second generation homeschooler, which makes my perspective a little bit unique. And I was homeschooled all the way through, K through 12, and I am currently a homeschool mom and mother of eight. My oldest is graduated. I have a senior this year and six more blessings coming up are right behind her. And I’ve been in customer service with Demme Learning for the last 14 years, supporting our customers and just love having these conversations on topics that you all reach out to us and say, “Hey, we want to know about this.” So I’m really looking forward to the conversation today.

Christina McDonald: 00:01:56.587
I’m Christina McDonald and I’m Amanda’s mom. And as she said, homeschooled, forever. I have five children and they range in age from 42 to 23. So lots of space in between, two girls, three boys, and they were all homeschooled through high school.

Gretchen Roe: 00:02:16.757
Absolutely. I’ve looked forward to this conversation because I have had the pleasure of knowing Amanda for 10 years. And I know what kind of fruit was sown in her life because I’ve watched her sow that fruit into her own children. But today we get to find out where that fruit came from. And so I’m pretty excited about that. So Christina, I want to begin all the way back in 1987. And this is your husband’s fault. So I’d like you to tell the story about how it’s his fault.

Christina McDonald: 00:02:47.394
Well, his roommate at IBM school happened to be a dad of eight daughters, and they were doing this radical, amazing thing called home educating. His wife was a psychologist, psychiatrist, I can’t remember which, but they had chosen to do this simply to set the personality of their children with their own particular family values. And so as Jim roomed with this gentleman and they had all these deep discussions, Jim was very moved and curious and really intrigued by the idea of us doing that same thing for our family. And so when he returned from base school, he asked me to please start looking into it.

Gretchen Roe: 00:03:36.146
And at that time, you all were in North Carolina.

Christina McDonald: 00:03:38.379
Mm-hmm.

Gretchen Roe: 00:03:39.361
And was homeschooling legal then in North Carolina?

Christina McDonald: 00:03:43.590
So we started learning about it through the Moore’s books.

Gretchen Roe: 00:03:50.455
That would be Raymond and Dorothy Moore. [crosstalk]–

Christina McDonald: 00:03:52.143
Raymond and Dorothy Moore–

Gretchen Roe: 00:03:53.192
–link to their books in our show notes for you.

Christina McDonald: 00:03:56.923
The only two books at the time that I could find that even mentioned education at home. The only two– I mean, I don’t know if there were more, but they were all I could find. And they were called the grandparents of homeschooling for a reason. And so that was so intriguing. And I was on board, but that was early on. Amanda was just a toddler. And so then some years went by and we finally began in 1988 or actually went to our first homeschool convention in 1988 and began. It was legal. It was legal, but there were lots and lots of rules and regulations. It was very scary.

Gretchen Roe: 00:04:36.721
Right, right. Homeschooling actually became legal nationwide in 1992, but there were still states that were slow to implement the acknowledgement of the homeschooling experiences. So it’s families like the McDonald’s who paved the way for those of us who found it easy to begin in the ’90s when we homeschooled because you guys had paved the path. And that’s really important. So talk to me a little bit about your children and what you found with them. And then Amanda, I’m going to spring forward and ask how that has borne fruit in your life with your own children. I know, Christina, that Amanda, being your firstborn, she’s not in the least bit of Type A because it takes one to know one. But not all of your children had the same skill sets. So let’s talk a little bit about that before we move forward, because I want parents to see themselves in your world.

Christina McDonald: 00:05:37.835
Well, and I would say A plus, if that’s a thing. Super easy to homeschool, very ready to learn, precocious. So we got off to a grand start. When little sister, who was two years younger, came on board, I had been aware from the time that she was very– I would say even 18 months-ish that there was some things that were different. I was the oldest in my family of origin. I had babysat a lot. And so even though I didn’t have a degree in childhood development, I just knew that there were some quirks and some things about her development that weren’t quite following the norm. And so as we actually began to homeschool, then that became very apparent. And suddenly I was in a place of struggling to figure out how we were actually going to be successful.

Gretchen Roe: 00:06:53.321
And that was not easy, particularly back in the early ’90s. We didn’t even have diagnosis for kids with learning challenges. And you all sought a diagnosis for her. And what did they tell you in seeking that diagnosis?

Christina McDonald: 00:07:09.841
By that time, we had moved to the state of Wisconsin. And I actually was referred to the University of Wisconsin by a pediatrician and was able to get a consultation in the audiology department. And so it was just as I suspected. It was as though somehow the link between what she heard and what she could remember or what she could then do mentally was not, there was something wrong with that connection. Her ears were perfect. It had nothing to do with the physical part of her ears. It was that pathway to the brain. And so they called it auditory processing issues. And I remember it was a wonderful experience, scary. But it was wonderful to have these people that were– they wanted to help. They were there to help. And they were surprised that I knew my child as well as I did. And I remember them telling me, “Well, whatever you’re doing, just keep doing what you’re doing because we don’t really have a plan. We can’t really put together a plan to help you.” They sent me with a few little games that we could play that were very similar to things I was already doing because I had figured out, “Well, this doesn’t seem to be working very well. So we need to strengthen this.” And so, yeah, I got a diagnosis, but it wasn’t as though there was a plan or the comfort of, “Here’s how to move forward.”

Gretchen Roe: 00:08:55.287
And many people who are going to listen to this podcast or watch this webinar are going to find themselves in the same place. They know something’s not right, but they don’t know necessarily what the answer is. And now we have a plethora of labels. It doesn’t mean the label is the child. It just means that you have to figure out a different way to educate them. So, Amanda, jumping forward into your family, you have eight children, and you’ve gotten to walk this out as far as the label is not the child. So talk a little bit about that.

Amanda Capps: 00:09:29.389
So, I mean, I’m incredibly grateful because I feel like a part of that happening foundationally in my family of origin did prepare me to be a mom to kids that have learning challenges. And, let’s be real, the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. We’ve been talking about fruit. [laughter] And so that’s actually happened with husbands too. I mean, so my husband, Justin, presents with a dyslexic diagnosis and ADD. Both of those labels directly impact education and the ability to learn. And so, yeah, things have to look different. You have to let go of the idea that, “Well, this is what education looks like.” And if you think that is a bookworm kid learning independently on their own and they just read and they love it, then you’re going to be disappointed when that tends to be the issue that your child struggles with. I was the child, when she says precocious– I taught myself to read. I very easily figured that out around four or five-ish. I can’t honestly remember a time where reading wasn’t just this incredible experience for me. Yeah, it brought a lot of joy. It opened up worlds. And so I’m sure you can imagine, as a mom, hearing kids say things like, “I hate this. It hurts. It’s so hard,” avoiding it, not wanting to do it and feeling like it’s a fight in the relationship. I mean, that’s an incredibly hard thing. And then to also be the mom that’s like, “Wait a minute, this wasn’t a struggle for me,” and then trying to get inside their perspective, understand what it is that they’re seeing, where that struggle lies. For us, a big part of that journey has been occupational vision therapy. A couple of my kids have needed speech. I had a brother that needed speech. I mean, so there’s– what I try to explain to the parents that reach out to us that, like you were talking about, they know something isn’t quite right. They don’t necessarily have a diagnosis. Sometimes they don’t even know where to start for a diagnosis. What I tell them is no one is going to have a better grasp or be a better advocate for your child, for your student than you are. God doesn’t make mistakes. I’ve had that conversation with my own children. This wasn’t just a mean trick. This wasn’t something designed to set you up for failure. This is just a challenge. And we’re going to figure out the best route and the tools and the people. And we’re just going to trust God to bring those pieces of the puzzle into place when we need them. And I can tell you over and over and over again, he has been faithful in that.

Christina McDonald: 00:12:45.875
Absolutely.

Gretchen Roe: 00:12:46.377
That’s awesome. Christina, you had told me that your mom was a second-grade teacher and was absolutely delighted when you announced that you were going to homeschool. I’m being only a little bit facetious here. Tell that story just a little bit because I think that there’s members of our audience who’re going to see themselves in that portion of your story.

Christina McDonald: 00:13:10.111
Well, actually, both our parents were not favorable for– they were of a generation. That is a huge part of it. They were of a generation where academic success was kind of worshiped. You’ve got these grandparents who went to college on the GI Bill. They really sacrificed to get where they were and they succeeded. And they were of that generation that education was the path to success. And so they loved me, but I think they thought I would screw that up. [laughter] And it was different. It was new. It was, “Well, what’s wrong with the schools? Schools were good for me.”

Gretchen Roe: 00:14:02.939
Well, I have to tell you, that conversation wasn’t just that way in 1987. It was that way in 1995 as well. And when you began your homeschooling journey, it was first books out of a dumpster and then very little available to you to utilize.

Christina McDonald: 00:14:19.427
Very little, very little, very little. And in North Carolina, we were mandated to begin formal schooling in kindergarten. And thank God, Amanda was precocious and ready because I had read the Moore’s books of better late than early. So definitely I wanted our homeschooling to look more like that advice because it made a lot of sense. Our homeschooling had a lot of experiential kinds of things about it. Lots of field trips, lots of helping mom and just realizing that we could get finished with our academic, whatever that– and it was pretty traditional at first, but it just didn’t take a lot of time. So my goodness, I wasn’t sitting there with a poor little kindergartner for an hour at a time doing math or reading. It was a very brief foray into that sort of thing. And then the rest of the day was just a lot of fun, a lot of outdoor time, a lot of reading.

Gretchen Roe: 00:15:24.667
And who knew that neurodevelopmentally, you would be on the cutting edge of what we now know is the best way to educate kids. So that’s just–

Christina McDonald: 00:15:33.406
Well, again, here were the Moores and they made such a compelling case for that very thing. It just made sense. It just made sense.

Gretchen Roe: 00:15:43.917
So taking that small available amount of materials, and then you all moved on to Wisconsin and eventually landed in Arkansas, Amanda, talk to us about being a high school or having to create your own experiential learning because I think this is fascinating.

Amanda Capps: 00:16:04.641
So, I was given the option going into high school by my parents. They sat me down and they were like, “If you have the desire–” Because not only was I precocious as far as just being a kid, but I was also an extravert and I was very social. And if I would say that there was anything that going into high school I was like, “I want this.” It was more of those events like prom. Some of the things–

Christina McDonald: 00:16:41.305
The clubs.

Amanda Capps: 00:16:41.973
And I actually even got invited to a traditional school prom but was told that I couldn’t go to it because I didn’t attend the school. So there were things like that and stigma around the homeschooling even then. And I graduated in 2000. But what I was really excited about, and what was an incredible opportunity was because of choosing to stay homeschooling through high school, I’m an– Mom talks about researching homeschooling, well that research gene fell very strongly on myself. I’m an avid researcher of everything. And so when my parents were like, “Think about your options, and we’re going to be supportive no matter what you choose.” I immediately started researching pulling friends that I had in the local public school system, kind of talking to them about how they spent their time, what their takeaway was. The positives, the negatives, all the things. And so I used all that information to make my decision. And what I realized was I could have way more control over what amount of time I spent doing what, and that was very appealing to me. And so because of that, it facilitated me being able to start something called the Young Ladies’ Living History Group. Which my mom was very, very onboard with and very supportive of. And I look back on that, and it took a lot of time, it took money. Because of the gap and the ages in my family she still had some pretty little kids. So we had to work around that. But I will say it was one of the most fun adventures that we ever had. And so this was a small, close-knit group of girls. We were all freshmen to seniors.

Christina McDonald: 00:18:43.033
Seniors.

Amanda Capps: 00:18:43.458
Yeah, seniors. And we did that all four years of my high school until I graduated. And we participated in some more reenactments. Victorian Silver Tea, Renaissance Festivals. We didn’t get to attend one, but we knew of people who were involved in World War II reenacting. When it comes to history there is such a wealth of events and things available to the public if they just dig in and do a little research. And so all of that was fascinating to me. And some of the friendships and the networking that I did during that time, I’m still in touch with those people today and it’s greatly enriched my life.

Christina McDonald: 00:19:27.539
So cool.

Gretchen Roe: 00:19:27.972
Well I think it is absolutely fascinating. And one of the benefits of homeschooling is being able to direct your own education. And if we lay the foundation well I think that gives us the opportunity to do that. And I’m really delighted to know that Christina laid such a great foundation for you, Amanda. That you’re now doing that for your own children as well which is pretty cool. Before we get to the questions that moms ask, because boy did we get some terrific– and actually, I shouldn’t say moms. Because there were two dads who asked questions. Before we get to those questions I want to ask you all about stress. And several moms said, “How do I portray our homeschooling experience so my kids don’t remember me as being stressed out?” And I know that Christine and I had the advantage of homeschooling before the age of the ubiquitous cell phone. And I think that is an advantage. But what would each of you give as advice to the mom who’s sitting here listening, thinking, “But my kids are going to look back on this time and all they’re going to remember is me being stressed out”?

Christina McDonald: 00:20:45.443
I don’t think there’s a family out there. We’re all in a really big club and stress of some sort is going to try to worm its way in. And so it really has to be a decision. There’s some stress that’s just unavoidable. And so once you embrace that and realize that’s part of life– this research thing – and it’s funny because there wasn’t an internet to research – I was a huge reader myself. And so boy, howdy, I would go searching for books or articles or homeschool support groups back in the day, I mean, where we actually went to a place and sat with each other and interacted and talked. I mean, not to knock the virtual, but, really it was a very special time to actually go somewhere away from my children [laughter] and sit with other moms and find out that we weren’t alone and to kind of help each other. And someone would usually have a great idea or at least commiserating, you’d go home and you’d feel better. And you were kind of supercharged and ready to go. So there are answers for those things, but you have to– and I think and I hope the moms want it. That is a great thing to not want that your kids are going to look back and see a lot of negativity. But then again, there’s also that healthy balancing act of there’s got to be some because life is life. And they’re going to watch how you go through it, so.

Amanda Capps: 00:22:39.372
Yeah, piggybacking off of that. Yeah, I mean, I would say more is caught than taught. Your reactions. And here’s the deal. I mean, there is not a parent out there that isn’t going to mess up, lose it, yell. I mean, you can have the most gentle parenting, whatever term you want to put on it, you can decide how you’re going to approach your parenting journey. And all of that is fantastic and wonderful and more power to you. But they’re going to look at the way you handle the little stresses, the things that happen. I mean, it never fails. I mean, if you’re all together, somebody’s going to throw up. There will be poop. Something’s going to spill. You’re going to find out that the gallon jar of honey in the pantry decided to bust and spring a leak and it’s over every– so then you’re faced with a decision. I can have a total meltdown about this. I can let myself get completely dysregulated and just fall apart. Or three-year-olds loved being given a wet washcloth and being told to jump in and help. And I mean, as long as you’re willing to shower everybody at the end of the fiasco. I mean, like I said, I mean, it’s all good. And again, it’s not that you react perfectly every time because we all have those things where we didn’t get enough sleep. And it just hit us sideways. And we’re just at our limit and that child is tap dancing on your last nerve. But if you can do it the majority of the time, I mean, if you can regulate or help them regulate the majority of the time, I promise you they’re not going to remember you blowing a gasket.

Christina McDonald: 00:24:45.407
I also feel that there’s kind of an important thing I want to pop in there. And there are consequences for all our decisions, right? I mean, nobody gets away from that. And so because we didn’t choose to recreate an institutional-schooling model in our home, the consequence of that was we could take a day off. We could just go outside. We’re just going to take an extra long recess, and we’re going to go outside. We’re going to get some sunshine and fresh air. It was just going outside because it literally took you out of the environment that was causing the stress. And I would say we laughed a lot. Just the dynamics of– children are hilarious if they’re allowed to be. And so if you allow that– we just laughed a lot. And that was just a help. That was a big help.

Amanda Capps: 00:25:59.056
And laughter does diffuse a lot. [laughter]

Christina McDonald: 00:26:01.964 And it really does.

Gretchen Roe: 00:26:02.696
One of the things I think I want moms to remember is when you homeschool, we have the perception that we are more stressed than perhaps someone who puts their kids on the big yellow bus. It just looks different. It’s the same amount of stress. It’s the same amount of pressure. And a lot of that pressure is self-produced. And I’m grateful that I didn’t homeschool in the age of social media because I would have been that competitive soul going, “No, wait a minute, if they can do that, I can do more.” And so I think it does make a difference for us, so.

Amanda Capps: 00:26:40.723
Well, and recognize what people are putting out on social media is their highlight reel. You have to have enough awareness to recognize they’re not going to post the things that are happening behind the scenes where it’s all falling apart and you look a mess and the baby’s been up screaming all night. I mean, that’s not the stuff that people put on social media. So take it with a grain of salt, get some perspective. And I can just tell you, I say this to my children – but it’s because it’s something I heard all my growing up – comparison is the thief of joy. And because we had such varying learning differences and strengths and weaknesses amongst the children just in my own family that was huge because there were those of us in our family that were very competitive. And sometimes that was not a character quality based on the environment or the situation. And so there was a lot of that character building. And again, this is where– a teacher in a public school or a private school situation with 35 kids, they can’t stop and talk to character with the kids. I mean, that’s not something that’s going to happen. But it absolutely can happen when you’ve got four or five, and you’re in that just that doing life together together kind of a situation.

Christina McDonald: 00:28:07.975
Is it okay for me to say something?

Gretchen Roe: 00:28:09.549
Oh, please.

Christina McDonald: 00:28:10.420
So she’s making me remember things. We also talked initially about the fact that– the very first homeschooling show I ever went to in North Carolina in 1988, the very first thing that the dad who led that seminar did was ask us to write a vision statement for our homeschooling. I mean, here I had a little child in kindergarten and one other toddler. How could we do that? But it forced my husband and I to think about what do we want at the end. And that really helps with stress too because you can– there are just so many things that are going to try to slip in there and get you off course, but if you have in the back of your mind, “This is what I want at the end–” and for me, it was more about relationship and a human that I wanted to be best friends with all my life. So I had to be a parent when it was time to be a parent, and now we get to truly just enjoy the fellowship of friendship. I loved and admired my kids all when they were little, but it just gets better and better. And that’s a surprise to just admire the humans, the adults that these five people have become. Oh my goodness.

Gretchen Roe: 00:29:50.410
And I wish that for everyone who listens to this because I feel the same way.

Christina McDonald: 00:29:54.742
Amazing vision.

Gretchen Roe: 00:29:55.484
You speak to my heart there because I have so enjoyed my children at every stage of their lives, but watching them grow and function in the world and love their own children is marvelous. I would like you two to speak to the mom who is grieving the fact that she homeschooled her children and her children aren’t homeschooling. So she has interpreted, misinterpreted, I believe, that she has not been a success. So Christina, can you talk about that, and then maybe Amanda, you as well?

Christina McDonald: 00:30:29.838
Sure. Of my five children, Amanda is the only one homeschooling, and I have a young son who’s not married yet, and then I have a son and a daughter-in-law who don’t have children yet. And so those children that are married, that have children, and who have chosen a different educational path, what I see is that they’re so involved in their children’s schooling. Isn’t that the measure of success, really, that they’re not absentee? They’re very, very involved. Both those children that haven’t chosen homeschooling have said things like, “I wish that were an option for us, but it just isn’t.” And it’s very obvious for many reasons that it is not. Without realizing it, they’re doing so many of the good things at home that foster that parental involvement. They’re reading good books to their kids. They’re doing audiobooks. They’re really very intentional about limiting screens. I mean, it’s all the things that– and it’s just a very challenging time to be raising any children and probably will get to be more and more and more so. But those same things that were just kind of foundational in the attitude are there. I am just so proud of all of them and just– I don’t take it– it was my job to raise them and do what God said for me to do and homeschool them. It is not my job to decide that’s the best course for them.

Gretchen Roe: 00:32:23.784
Oh, I love that. I love the way that you said that. Amanda?

Amanda Capps: 00:32:27.656
Yeah. I mean, I think– I think that foundational thing that was instilled in all of us was that love of lifelong learning. None of us stopped learning and growing and investing in our own continuing education. And that’s the thing. I think when people think continuing education, they think, “Oh, well. You went and you got your master’s or you went and you did community college courses or you’re doing– you’re doing these things.”

Christina McDonald: 00:32:59.310
And some of them have done that.

Amanda Capps: 00:33:00.678
And some of them– and some of them have. But education is education. So that’s anything that you’re doing to enrich your understanding of what’s going on in the world around you. And so I think– I think we just have to look at what are we putting the definition of success on? What is one person’s success isn’t another’s. Everybody has strengths and weaknesses and gifting? Giftings are a huge impact and those are different. It talks so much in Scripture about the body. And if we were all the same part, I mean, that would just be really crazy and no fun. And it’s all the parts fashioned and working together that create the community and the beauty that is– that is learning and education.

Gretchen Roe: 00:33:50.326
I love what you both have said about fostering that academic experience, but recognizing that the relationship is the important thing here. And so I want to make sure that the mom who’s feeling like, “Gee, I’m not as successful as I want to be,” as long as you’re creating relationship, that success is still there. Even though it might not be the same measure by which society measures that success. Toward that end, I want to ask, this was my– we had a bunch of questions that I loved this time. But one of my favorite questions was, as a homeschooled teen, Amanda, what did you most need to keep a joy of learning and to maintain a healthy relationship with your mom?

Amanda Capps: 00:34:43.988
Who? I mean–

Gretchen Roe: 00:34:46.735
No pressure. No pressure.

Amanda Capps: 00:34:49.268
Thank you for that, Gretchen. Thank you. Looking back on specifically the teen years, I mean, there were a lot of different things going on. I was growing up in the height of a lot of patriarchal teachings, purity culture. I mean, there were a lot of really strong influences. And my parents were kind of on the outskirts of that to some extent. But what I appreciated was they always just put information out there and they then let me take that information and decide how far I was going to run with it. And being the Type A, oldest child, I took it and ran a marathon, but anyway. So I think for me it was, I knew I could ask my parents anything. And they were going to give me the dignity of an answer, of giving me their thoughts and their opinions. And I valued that very highly because I saw the fruit of that in their own lives. They sought counsel. They sought godly counsel. And so therefore, I was very open to that in my own life. So I think, again, it’s one of those things– and don’t get me wrong. I mean–

Gretchen Roe: 00:36:18.933
I was going to say, are you portraying a life where you all never argued?

Amanda Capps: 00:36:23.103
No, no, not at all. [laughter] But on the flip side of that, Mom was also a–

Christina McDonald: 00:36:29.337
It’s a lot of respect, though.

Amanda Capps: 00:36:30.948
Yeah, we did really have mutual respect.

Christina McDonald: 00:36:31.876
Mutual respect for each other.

Amanda Capps: 00:36:34.448
For sure. But I mean, there was also so much opportunity for me to explore the areas where I was strong. My parents also did a ton of hospitality. So I grew up in– we had a lot of guests. We had people over for dinner. We did Bible studies in our home and those types of things. And so those things again–

Amanda Capps: 00:37:00.248
–they foster the same thing. And so those things continue on. And so our family, of course, loves a lot of that same thing too. I think the real pivotal moment for me, I was 10 years old when my brother Stephen was born. So–

Gretchen Roe: 00:37:18.394
There are five of us. I’m glad I don’t have to prompt you on this story. [laughter]

Amanda Capps: 00:37:21.860
There are five of us. And Stephen is baby number four or kiddo number four. So there’s two girls and then two boys. And so Stephen is is the youngest of that group. We were all pretty close together. And then we had what we call Timothy, the Y2K glitch.

Christina McDonald: 00:37:37.493
The bonus baby.

Amanda Capps: 00:37:38.889
He was all of that– the bubble in our in our Y2K experience because everybody in the homeschool community that’s my age knows Y2K was a thing. [laughter] It was a thing. But my parents were just grossing us out telling us they were having another baby, so it’s fine. [laughter] It’s fine.

Gretchen Roe: 00:37:54.962
We were doing the very same thing at my house, so. [laughter]

Amanda Capps: 00:37:58.557
Yeah. It must have been a widespread glitch. [laughter] It’s fine. Anyway, so when he was born, he was born three weeks early. He was the tiniest of the babies. But I was also– like I said, he was born December 1st. My birthday was January 1st. So I turned 10 a month after he was born. And I remember going to my mom and just saying, “If I was in school, I would be missing this. I would be missing the changing the diapers and the holding him and the being here on the daily and watching those milestones and watching him grow.”

Christina McDonald: 00:38:38.803
Yeah. A live baby.

Amanda Capps: 00:38:39.913
Yeah, the progression. He was. He was a live baby doll. And I will tell anyone that that was the bud. That was the seed of me wanting to be a mom and wanting to continue this legacy on and recognizing–

Gretchen Roe: 00:38:57.455
That’s why she has eight children. [laughter] Well, there’s other reasons why she has eight children, but [crosstalk]–

Amanda Capps: 00:39:03.398
Overachiever. [laughter] I mean, to be real, I actually wanted– my favorite book ever as a as a young adult was Cheaper by the Dozen. And then I had a baby and I was like, “Let’s bring that back to six. Let’s do three and three.” [laughter] And of course I had a plan. Of course I had a plan, Gretchen. I wanted three boys and three girls. We wanted even numbers. We weren’t going to do the odds. So anyway, and then we ended up with eight. And that’s a whole God thing in and of itself. But I recognized very clearly in those moments and when I went to my mom– and I was very emotional because it really made an impression on me. And I realized that she could have had eight hours a day to herself, that she didn’t have to choose to keep us home and to sacrifice her own time, desires, pursuits. I mean, when you’re a mom yourself, you realize eight hours is a lot of beautiful freedom [laughter] [laughter] potentially. But yet, I also loved spending time with my mom and my parents. And so the whole idea of like, “Oh, let’s have kids, and then send them away to school or put them in daycare–” not that if that’s your route and your reality that it’s wrong or bad. I’m not trying to knock it at all. But it was just like I knew deep within myself that it was like, “If I was going to have these kids, I wanted to be there every minute every step of the way.” And I wanted to pour into them the way that I had been poured into.

Gretchen Roe: 00:40:39.301
So I’m going to ask a question that we didn’t ask in our planning session. And this is going to take this a little bit sideways. Christina, I apologize. Amanda’s used to me doing this to her [laughter]. But when you all had conflict– because I think this would be helpful to moms who are listening. When conflict arose between the two of you, particularly with Amanda as a teenager, how did you resolve that conflict?

Christina McDonald: 00:41:06.509
We tried to be biblical. I mean, that was the goal [laughter], I had an older friend, gave me a piece of advice when my kids were just coming in to do proverbs. Proverbs are the wisdom literature. And so I took that to heart to the point that we pretty much did a proverb every day of the entire time the children were at home just over and over and over again. And if you do anything that often, it just became– there was just so much wisdom in there. James 1:5 was my life verse as a mom. “If you lack wisdom, ask.” And so I mean, there were– okay. So we do have a funny, unique to our family thing. I don’t know how this happened, but it got called the family powwow where we would get everybody together and try to have a discussion about, “Okay. Here seems to be an issue that’s happening over and over again. How can we solve–” it was always about–

Amanda Capps: 00:42:21.761
Collaboration.

Christina McDonald: 00:42:21.761
–how can we solve the issue? The boys, the boys just very flippantly say things like, “Yeah, the family powwow, where the girls would cry and mom and dad [laughter] would do a lot of talking.” So I mean, I don’t–

Gretchen Roe: 00:42:38.957
It was the same way at our house. We didn’t call it that, but it was pretty much the same.

Christina McDonald: 00:42:43.682
Yeah. I mean, I think you’re just–and really, they saw the same thing in conflict resolution. They saw that in my husband and I’s relationship, too. I mean, it wasn’t like we never had one. I mean, we were all together all the time. But it was like, “How can this be biblical? How can this be respectful,” not that it always was. I was also just keenly aware of the fact that the teen years are a very intense time, a roller coaster for them of emotions and hormones. And it was kind of like you’re actually preparing to let go. And if they fall on their face and fail at home, then you get the opportunity to pick them up a little bit, dust them off, and say, “That’s not the end of the world. Yes, there’s a consequence.” And every family kind of maybe has to set those parameters and those– but it was always the end goal of, “This is not going to be forever,” just like taught the toddler, the difficult toddler. You realize it’s just a season. And what really matters is the other side, this human that I’m going to want to be friends with for the rest of my life. So yeah.

Gretchen Roe: 00:44:15.677
I remember telling my youngest son when he was about 11, “You’re going to wake up one day and you’re going to think that we, your dad and I, are an absolute stress in your life. We’re a pain in your life. You’re going to be– I want you to recognize that that is coming. And when that happens, I don’t want you to be angry with yourself. I want you to recognize that’s a normal part of growing up.” And so we were on his graduation trip after he graduated last June and he looks over at me and he goes, “You know, I never woke up thinking that.” And I said, “Oh yeah?” He goes, “Yeah, no. There were times in the day that I would think that.” But he said, “I never woke up thinking that.” And he said, “It never lasted for very long.” And he said he found the trip that we made together for a week last summer to be so enlightening because he realized the sacrifices that his parents had made to give him the things that he had. I think that what we all want is we want our kids to know that we have sewn into their lives and invested in their lives.

Christina McDonald: 00:45:23.144
Absolutely.

Gretchen Roe: 00:45:23.756
So that they could have the best life possible. I want to ask you both this question because I thought it was really kind of cute and I loved it. Doing boredom strikes. And at my house, we called that word the B word. And if you said the B word, I had a toothbrush and a can of Comet and I was going to send you to the grout in the bathroom.

Amanda Capps: 00:45:51.328
I mean, it wasn’t quite that bad in our house. But yeah, no, we knew if we uttered that, “I’m bored,” mom had a volumeless list of tasks that could reset that thing. Yeah, I mean, I think that’s, if I’ve noticed anything as far as a drawback to the homeschooling today and the gaming consoles and the phones and the tablets and all the things, it’s stealing the opportunity for boredom from kids. I mean, so if I was bored, I wouldn’t tell mom I was bored, but I would go outside and I would– I mean, what we would play Narnia or we would come up with these elaborate– I remember in Wisconsin specifically, we had a corn crib that we lived on a five-acre farm at that had all these farm buildings. We were not farmers, so we were not utilizing them for the purposes for which they were created. But the corn crib had a concrete floor. So we all had roller skates. I mean, we would do elaborate skating and then make them come out and watch us. And we would drag boards and put them on concrete, concrete blocks and they were balance beams and we would do gymnastic routines. I mean, we just spent so much time together, being creative and trying things. And yeah, and not being afraid if we got hurt or we failed at something or– I mean, I don’t think we burned anything down. I don’t think we blew anything up.

Amanda Capps: 00:47:38.077
No.
Christina McDonald: 00:47:39.653
I think most of us managed to escape without any broken bones. I mean, we were pretty [crosstalk].

Gretchen Roe: 00:47:45.228
My kids single-handedly paid for an emergency room at the hospital because somebody was always doing something to themselves. My kids thought Boxcar Children was the most amazing series of books and I couldn’t– I kept thinking, “Well, okay, you guys want to be orphans?

Christina McDonald: 00:48:07.199
I mean, it’s just the adventure, Gretchen. It’s the idea of being on your own.

Gretchen Roe: 00:48:12.998
My husband and I laughingly say we raised six firstborn children. So they are all like Amanda, wildly independent, row their own boat, those kinds of things. So Christina, how was that for you as the mom? I guess you acculturated them not to say the B word. So they weren’t bored. But how was what was your response there?

Christina McDonald: 00:48:39.913
I don’t remember. I just don’t remember that being a bad word in our family. It just didn’t get much of a rise out of me. It was, well, then go read a book. Go do something. I don’t remember really particularly being affected by it. I will just point out something that we haven’t talked about at all is, I have three sisters and one brother. So I just wasn’t really– and I wasn’t really close to my brother. So I wasn’t really sure about the boy thing. And so I had two girls, which I was thrilled about. And then I had three boys. So for me, it was kind of like waking up in Narnia to have boys and to raise them and to just see how different they are. They’re different than me. And to really come to appreciate just the unique thing that guys are. Just the way they look at life, the way they played, the way they hurt themselves, the way the way they needed to be nurtured and homeschooled, which was very different than the girls. And so there’s that too. I mean, that was just a real for me, I almost felt like I was in a laboratory, like taking in their responses and thinking in my little brain, that doesn’t compute with how I think. And yet appreciating getting to raise boys as well as girls.

Gretchen Roe: 00:50:22.469
I can totally understand that. I’m an only child. And so to have six children, I had Amanda’s three boys and three girls. There were times my husband’s one of five, I would turn to him and say, is this normal? They’re related. I didn’t think it was normal because I was born a tiny adult. So it’s a very different experience. Tell me, ladies, what advice you would offer to the mom who wants to be relaxed in her homeschool journey?

Amanda Capps: 00:51:01.920
Good luck. [laughter] Oh, I’m sorry, I’m sorry.

Christina McDonald: 00:51:07.212
This is where I want to say you need to invest in yourself.

Gretchen Roe: 00:51:11.904
Yes, I know you’re going here. So I want–

Christina McDonald: 00:51:13.953
In mother culture. And I guess I’m still a person who’s going to pick a book, maybe more than jump on the internet, but that book might be on my Kindle. So I’m not totally, I guess I am totally, I am. My kids are. I’m very low tech and I want to stay that way. So I have not, although I wanted them to feel like you can learn anything. And that really is a choice. And so I’ve made a very conscious choice that I just don’t want to keep up with the technology very much. But there is someone out there who has felt your same things. I mean, I think the biggest thing that I see with us not spending as much time in group with real people, face-to-face, physically, face-to-face, is that lie of isolation that you’re the only one going through this is able to flourish a little bit more. And so I think it’s not that it’s new. There’s nothing new under the sun as far as what parents have struggled against. But maybe you have to think of ways that are a little different than what I would have done to combat it. So if there’s a group that you need to belong to online or if there is a particular resource that you need to avail yourself of, it’s worth it. You have to invest in yourself so that you can come out on the other side of this glad that you did it.

Gretchen Roe: 00:52:58.943
Right. Right. Amanda?

Amanda Capps: 00:53:01.997
Yeah, I cannot agree with that more. And that is something, as an adult and at the stage in life that I’m in currently, I’ve been trying, at least, once a month to get my closest friends together. We’re all busy moms. We all have made– some of my friends homeschool. Some of my kids have a couple different things going on depending on the child. I mean, the options are vast, and I think you have to really understand your student and their needs and then make choices accordingly. I would definitely encourage any parent that that needs to be a part of your process. But we get together. We put out some fancy food. [laughter] We have some tea and some real teacups. Sometimes we do a seasonally themed poem. Sometimes it’s just bring your favorite, whatever it is. But everybody gets a chance to share something that means something to them and tell everybody why it means something to them. And I think there’s just something so cathartic and inspiring and encouraging–

Christina McDonald: 00:54:16.012
Rejuvenating.

Amanda Capps: 00:54:16.937
–and rejuvenating about taking that kind of time and going, “Yeah, the dads have the kids for the evening.” And it’s okay to have a break. I think sometimes when we choose this path, we choose this journey, that we think that that means we need to be with our kids 24/7, 365 days a year, and if we’re not there, something disastrous is going to happen. And that’s totally not the case. You have to have breaks. This is important for you as a couple. You and your husband need to take breaks from your kids where you can get face-to-face and encourage each other and maybe even get past the, “What do we have on the schedule this week?” Because let me tell you, when you have that many people and moving parts and things going on and careers and all the things, it can really very easily just kind of start to break down because you can’t get past that surface level if you don’t intentionally make the time and then same deal with your kids. I work hard and it’s difficult, but it’s worth it to try to find, at least, somewhere in there where I can do some one-on-one time with each kid. The good times and us of being all together are great and wonderful and important – and we do.; we laugh until we cry sometimes – I mean, it can be so fun and comical. But it’s also very important to have that time where you can look a kid in the eye and say, “What’s going on with you? What’s happening in your heart? How are you feeling about–” and have a topic. I mean, there’s nothing wrong with looking for something that kind of gets the conversation started, but what you’ll find very quickly is if you crack that door open, oftentimes, that floodgate will just– and you’ll get this insight and this picture into who your kid is and where they’re at and what they’re doing. And it’s amazing, and it’s beautiful. And you just kind of sit back in awe, and you go, “Wow. Wow. This is such a cool person. I am so glad I grew you.” And I didn’t buy a straight jacket on Amazon and hang it in the closet. And there are those days too. There just are.

Gretchen Roe: 00:56:38.724
And you know, I think it’s important for us to acknowledge that. It’s not all sweetness, sunshine, lollipops, and light. There are days when the yellow school bus looks really good. So I think it’s important for us to acknowledge that as well. Christina, what would you have in the way of closing thoughts for our families today?

Christina McDonald: 00:56:57.699
Well, I think that one of the themes that’s kind of been running through many of the things that Amanda has said and that I would encourage anybody who’s just spending an awful lot of time with their family, especially if they’re homeschooling is, it’s don’t be in isolation. So be intentional about relationships that are even outside your family, with your husband, with your children, individuals, it’s relationship, relationship, relationship. And as she was talking about the poetry and the beautiful things– so here’s here’s the other thing we just have to talk about. And that is there were so many things. I felt like I had a very wonderful education. As I came to homeschooling, I felt like I had had a good, solid three R’s. I had a good foundation. I was not in any way worried about the academic part of homeschooling. I just wasn’t because you don’t know what you don’t know. I didn’t know I was going to have to be dealing with some learning issues and all that, but that’s okay. But as I began to be mentored by these wonderful people that the Lord raised up to speak into the homeschooling community in those early days, it was a return to things like poetry, beautiful literature. Oh, the five in the five in a row folks that just sewed into our hearts about quality of the Charlotte Mason, just all those giants that I felt like I stood on their shoulders. I have to say it was the way it changed me. I was sharing things with my children, not because it was in some book somewhere that said, now we’re going to do a unit on poetry. It was like, “Guys, listen to this.” And I can remember reading the book, At The Back Of The North Wind. And I guess I’m a little slow sometimes because I didn’t realize until the very end how that was going to go. And I knew I couldn’t do it. It was a sad ending. And I handed it to my oldest son and his little quavery voice as he dealt with– it was like so much– anyway, so it’s the poetry, it’s the beauty, it’s art. The child that had difficulties in learning just so happens to be the most incredibly talented artist. God doesn’t make mistakes. God gives abundantly more in another area where there’s a lack in one. And so the whole art world opened up to me.

Christina McDonald: 00:59:53.057
And so I looked back at my education and I saw, well, I did a really good job of when the bell rang, I went to the next class and I sat there very obediently. And I learned what they wanted me to learn. But that didn’t mean it was a good education. And so it’s this ability for each individual family to decide what is your vision for the education of your children. And so to have to have one of my sons sit with a 90-year-old man who by memory was doing Shakespeare. And we had had him,– he came over for dinner. And then my son, you know, who was I guess 16 at the time said, Oh, listen to this one by JRR Tolkien, sir.” And he said this poem. And the man was just awestruck. And he looked at me and he looked at my son and he said, “What is your favorite poetry?” And he said, “Well, sir, it’s the ones that make me think.” And I just remember the gentleman just saying, “Dear lady, dear, dear lady.” It was just such a moment, you know? It is the beauty. God has, you know, raised us up and put things in us, put eternity in our hearts. And the beautiful, beautiful things, the beautiful written word, the beautiful art, the beautiful music. We listen to a lot of beautiful music. And even though I never had an education in music, all my children had the opportunity to have musical education because it was beautiful. Not because they were going to become professional musicians, but because it would put an appreciation for beauty in their lives, which it did. And so that’s how I want to wrap it up is just the beautiful things in life are there. In spite of social media, those things are all there. And it doesn’t mean that they’re not even maybe– there’s an exhibit in Tulsa, Oklahoma for Van Gogh that’s all computer generated. How amazing is that? It’s an immersive experience. And so how amazing is that? So I’m not dissing technology, but I’m just saying you have to be wise. You have to really– some of the old and some of the new. But stick with the beautiful things and it’ll do you and your kids good.

Gretchen Roe: 01:02:46.529
Such wise words.
Amanda Capps: 01:02:48.043
And do things scared. I mean, she got on horses with my sister and was petrified, but she did it because my sister loved horses. And I know she did things for me that took her out of her comfort zone. So I think that’s another thing we have to really embrace is sometimes we’re going to have to really get out of our comfort zone in order to engage with our kids or our spouses. And sometimes it can end up being something you really enjoy or sometimes it’s one of those things where it’s like, “All right, did that, checked it off my list, never doing it again. Glad that’s over. 100%.”

Gretchen Roe: 01:03:22.369
Absolutely. I think you ladies have provided such tremendous wisdom, not just for a homeschooling family, but for a family doing life together. And I want to thank you both for your time today. It has really been my great pleasure to spend this time with you all. I want to thank our audience for joining us today. It has been a tremendous privilege to share this time with you all. This is Gretchen Roe for The Demme Learning Show. Thank you so much for joining us. You can access the show notes and watch the recording at deme-learning.com/show or on our YouTube channel. Please feel free to share it around, especially if you enjoyed it. You are welcome to rate, review, or follow wherever you may be hearing this. And we thank you for your time. We appreciate the fact that you will welcome us into your homes and you spend time with us. And we love spending time with you. Take care, everyone. Have a wonderful afternoon.

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